Why; The Bible

[Matt_Bonnetfolly1]

Yeah now if I remember correctly, those church leaders you talk about are the Magisterium. And also, if it is how you say, (which I do believe is true) then that means that the books Hans mentioned are supposed to be in the Bible.

[Hans_Oddcraft]

Again, you have no more proof of this than I do, @Matt_Bonnetfolly1.

[Rachel_Blackruin]

@Hans_Oddcraft, if @Matt_Bonnetfolly1 is a Catholic, (truly) then I suppose he would know. And I said before "PLEASE, IF YOU ARE GOING TO ARGUE, MOVE IT TO THE LAW AND ORDER TOPIC!"
This topic was for pondering, and asking questions. So, @Matt_Bonnetfolly1, @Hans_Oddcraft. and others who were arguing. PLEASE, NO MORE ARGUMENTS HERE!

[Hans_Oddcraft]

But I started a theological debate topic and @Xonos_Darkgrate1 said to have them here, @Rachel_Blackruin.

[Rachel_Blackruin]

Hey guys, I also just thought I'd something really quickly before I have to go. This topic is great and all, and it'd be a great place to ponder about the mysteries of the Bible and other things, buuuuuuuuuuuuut....

please be careful to, if you happen to disagree with someone's opinions, please start your argument in the Law and Order topic as not to get off, well, topic. This is sort of a forewarning, as I'd hate to see this great topic go down the drain of SPAM!!!

This is what he said a couple months ago. Can you try to find and quote that post?

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

Oh goodness, @Hans_Oddcraft, are you really going to go off-topic for something I may or may not have said?!

Just take this to the Law-and-Order topic because you and @Matt_Bonnetfolly1 aren't really doing much to make this topic better and you certainly aren't listening to @Rachel_Blackruin, who may I remind you, made this topic in the first place.

So please, can you and @Matt_Bonnetfolly1 just take it somewhere else?

Goodness...

[Hans_Oddcraft]

We called a draw(for now), @Xonos_Darkgrate1.

[Jane_Gogglerubble]

Would You Rather?

If the rapture were tomorrow, but you had the choice... Would you:

Be taken to Heaven Stay on Earth only to continue witnessing and endure the last days of the world10votersVotes are public.Show results

I've heard this before, but the Bible doesn't seem to hint that people will be saved during the last days. Revelation 9:20-21 actually says the opposite:
"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood--idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."
They actually, "cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done," Revelation 16:11.

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

@Jane_Gogglerubble, my poll was purely hypothetical. I didn't mean that there would be Christians who would stay behind at all. On the other hand, the Bible does tell of a rapture to happen in which all Christians shall be taken up.

It is perfectly fine to say that there won't be Christians who had the choice to stay behind, as I have no evidence nor believe that, but it is not correct, however, to say that there won't be a rapture.

I do hope that this was a misunderstanding, but I'm ready to argue my point if it wasn't.

Regards,
Xonos Darkgrate

[Hanna_Brassheart]

Wait, sorry, I misunderstood, but I do now.
How about Romans 11:26 and Revelation 20:4?
Revelation 20:4 especially indicates that people will be saved.

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

Oh, I think I made the same mistake as @Hanna_Brassheart. Sorry, @Jane_Gogglerubble.

In any case, I do believe that people will be saved in those last days. At the very least, it is obviously possible. My reason for believing this is because the Bible says that there will be two prophets at some point then, (mostly likely Elijah and Moses if I'm not mistaken), to come and rebuke the people for their sins. I think that, if people still didn't have a choice to change and follow Christ, there would be no point in those two prophets. That's just one example though. There are some others such as the verse that @Hanna_Brassheart posted.

[Hanna_Brassheart]

They do have a choice, however the unanswerable question is: Will they take it?
They have a choice up until they take the mark, whereafter they cannot be saved.

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

I know, which is why it seems a bit hopeless after then.
However, I, personally, think that there will be a few who are conflicted within. Not choosing any sides. Since, at that point, the final battle and the end isn't there yet so there isn't really a call to arms. But I feel that those who may have had some type of Christian influence or past and might not have chosen it may be the ones God is giving a second chance for through the last Christians and prophets.

But you're right about the mark thing. Those people would have made their choice.
@Hanna_Brassheart

[Jane_Gogglerubble]

@Hanna_Brassheart @Xonos_Darkgrate1
Yes, I don't argue that the rapture will take place. As Xonos corrected, I was wondering where in the Bible it was said that the people left on earth would be saved.

I think Revelation 11 addresses your statement, Xonos, about the prophets. I think they act more as a witness against the earth. "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth," Revelation 11:9-10

Hanna, if this occurred after the rapture, then Revelation 20:4 would be a great verse in support of the salvation of those left on earth! I have honestly not studied the timeline of the book of Revelation enough to say either way, but I'll definitely keep that verse in mind.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

It's confirmed that there will be 144,000 Jewish believers in the Tribulation who are sealed by the Spirit:

3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

I would imagine that these people, in faithfulness to God's calling, would evangelize others in the name of Jesus. Also,

Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

strongly implies that there will be believers. (Revelation 7 | Revelation 14)

Keep in mind there will be a few scientists and INTJs ( ) who will want to investigate the rapture and find out what went on after the event. The Rayford Steele story could be real too - if your wife, brother, friend vanished and there was a bunch of cacophony in the sky, wouldn't you at least be compelled to Google it?

It might be harder to become a believer without our assistance, seeing as we're all gone, but I think some will manage it. The Bibles won't all vanish.

In all fairness, as a counterpoint I've heard that a "deluding influence" will exist after the rapture, making it harder for people to be saved, but I can't quite find the scripture for it right now. Still, there are deluding influences at work right now too, so I think some will be saved during the tribulation. Other places imply that there will be martyrs in the tribulation for Jesus.

[Jane_Gogglerubble]

@Miss_S, you also bring up some good points.

Ok, I may need to dive into a study of the book of Revelation! I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this, they are certainly thought-provoking!

[Rachel_Blackruin]

Catholics have some extra-Bible books that contains false, Catholic promoting information.

No we don't. We don't have extra bible books

ne, go ahead and name any book that doesn't belong in the bible.

You have changed and added to God’s word in these way:Tobit.Judith.Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4–16:24)Wisdom (also called the Wisdom of Solomon)Sirach (also called Ecclesiasticus)Baruch, including the Letter of Jeremiah (Additions to Jeremiah in the Septuagint)Additions to Daniel: ...1 Maccabees

Well, one, John's specifically talking about Revelations. And two, why would those selections be wrong? What do they have against other denominations. And also, who's to say that those weren't originally there and it was you guys who took it out? There's so many possibilities, Hans. You can just look at one little piece of information and go, "WOAH! I've got it! The Catholics were wrong!"

I was just re-reading through this debate/FIGHT between @Matt_Bonnetfolly1 and @Hans_Oddcraft and I think it is extremely disrespectful!

First of all, @Hans_Oddcraft, you are straight-up telling Matt that his beliefs are wrong, and their books are false, and blah blah blah. That would be like someone coming up to US and saying you believe in the wrong God, the Bible isn't really true, you aren't worshiping right. As much as I do believe that the Catholic beliefs are sometimes false, we need to respect them and what they believe. UNfortunately we don't see much of that in the world, if people have an opposing idea or belief, than they say that's the ONLY right way, everyone else is wrong.
Second things is that both of you are being quite rude, like LAW AND ORDER A GOOD PLACE FOR FRIENDLY ARGUMENT. "friendly" argument, it didn't look like there was any friendliness in that conversation. Neither was a forgiveness, and an admit to attacking what Matt knew best, grew up learning maybe.
I know that's WEEKS old, but still, it was an unhappy, rude, selfish, unkind argument, I don't want to see more aggressive arguments like that... especially on here!

[Cinnar_Ratchetloop]

Catholics are catholics, @Hans_Oddcraft. People have their own beliefs, and all people are different. Due respect for other people is key. You can't go on blabbering on how everything about their religion is wrong. And like @Rachel_Blackruin said... you could have made this more FRIENDLY, and neither of you are going to get away with it.

[Hans_Oddcraft]

Okay, I apologize for not being “friendly”. @Matt_Bonnetfolly1 @Rachel_Blackruin @Cinnar_Ratchetloop But this doesn’t mean that I don’t believe what I said.

[Cinnar_Ratchetloop]

It is never easy to change someone's mind. For now, I will tip my hat, back away, and bid you a du.