Members' Union

[Ariella_Newheart]

You just did both. Now we see your real opinion.

No? I didn't? I literally just said, "I would never say that, nor would I think that." You're putting words in my mouth.

It may be noted that many of my supporters are busy with important life matters and have not the time to read that post yet. In addition, my post is more serious than yours is, and so it’s harder to emotionally swallow that a seemingly quick and easy solution.

I acknowledge that this may be the reason why your post has less likes. But it might also be that people see the same flaws in your arguments that I do. Please consider that option as well. (I also don't like using the term "supporters" to describe either of us. We're not leaders who oppose one another and guide our "supporters" into battle. This topic has become a place for the members of the community to respectfully voice their opinions and concerns about certain decisions that the moderators make. Even though that wasn't its original purpose, I don't mind that it has become a discussion forum for decisions like this. I hope it stays that way. )

Giving into the abusive demands of the LGTBQ that we not proclaim the truth of God’s word is wrong. Now this may not be the correct venue for such discussion, but you will need to use other reasoning to prove the point, rather than advocating for “tolerance” and accusing those of us in Law and Order of wrong.

I already have been on one forum with an intolerance rule where all of the LGTBQ folks had full license to troll everyone, hurt and abuse because we were forced to support their sin and could not speak the Scripture to help. That is what you are advocating for, and you should know that.

Ma'am, I never suggested any of that. I'm on your side in this. I don't want to be forced into tolerating something that is against Scripture. I was explaining the mindset behind Goku's post, which has been forums precedent for this topic for a long time. If you have a problem with it, take it up with him.

I am not going to change my opinion on this, Ari.

Wonderful, I respect that.

You may be scared, but I am not.

And I am not scared of you.

I never said I was scared. Perhaps concerned about misrepresenting Christ, but not scared of anything.

Silencing LGBTQ+ discussion isn't letting the evil run free, it's keeping the innocent, well innocent. Why does it even need to be discussed here? This. Is. A. Gaming Forum.

Thank you, @Lilliana_Umbrellascope
.

[Dathmaul_Crinklegadget]

I agree.

Ceasefire
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvfs2TUj-D4]
_{Not sure if this is entirely appropriate for this conversation but this is an amazing song by for king and country that might relate to this.}

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Even right now I believe we are both squabbling over something futile and setting a bad example. I would therefore prefer to not continue the discussion...

I was going to leave it to Sierepica, but this is going a bit far. The only way a discussion would be futile would be if both parties stubbornly stick to their guns and refuse to learn from each other. While Sierepica has laid down several good points in favor of her arguement the only thing I've heard from you is, "It might hurt someone's feelings."

I must admit, my motherly side was awakened by Keaton's reaction to Law and Order. It took a comment from @Pig_Larkcape1 to help me realize that I was letting my emotions overtake my reason. Women generally want to protect others from harm, emotionally or otherwise. While this is good for young children, it is not so good for them as they grow. I shall borrow the words of Q the Insufferable since he can say it much better than I.

"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here."

That is also what people who have genuine respect for their opponent in an argument say when they want to point out that their opponent's method of arguing might be flawed.

Tread carefully, Ariella. Angels and sirens both sing sweetly, but have very different intentions. Similar words may be used for both good and ill intentions. Be careful of yours.

However, that is not my only warning. Discounting abuse, as you seem to have done, is not proper conduct for either a lady or a Christian. Sierepica's view is a very different one from yours.

I could say the exact same thing to you.

Easy, darling, you are falling into a dangerous error. A single perspective makes a very narrow view.

I am trying to be a voice of reason and perhaps conviction to everyone on this forum who would listen.

You are being a voice of emotion, particularly of motherly emotion. We cannot and should not coddle members of one particular group. I had never read Sir Ironheart's reasons for closing down the subject. Now that I have, I must say that I do not agree with them. Refusing to discuss certain subjects does not show tolerance. In fact, it shows the opposite. Shutting down a topic because it might hurt or offend a certain group of people is, forgive the strong language, tyranny, not tolerance.

If you look at the number of likes on my post, that will indicate that many people agree with my perspective, or at least acknowledge that it has merit.

I actually liked it because I enjoy a lively discussion. However, I don't think I will like this one.

I would like this game forum to be kid-friendly. Please? You're making my internet home an unhappy place.

Perhaps it will be again when the new content comes out and we have something to talk about. In the meantime, read a role play.

We, the Resistance are here to rebuild. Not to bring the Fog in.

You seem to be rather ignorant of how Fog can spawn. If you keep ignoring it, it will grow. The more you ignore it, the more it will spread. A little conflict now is much better than growing resentment and greater conflict later.

I like good vibes too, and I wish that I could go back to having them. But I keep getting drawn back in. I want things to be resolved and back to good-vibes land like they were before, and people keep fighting me. It’s like a fountain of problems that keeps getting deeper and deeper.

A lot of it, I've noticed, stems from emotion more than anything else. We don't want to potentially cause anyone distress. We're arguing about how not to cause people distress. As a result, we ourselves are becoming distressed.

Should we stop? Not until we've sorted this out.

We seem unable to agree on what tolerance is. Ariella, dear, why don't you find a definition before we continue.

I will face down your squabbling mob of supporters and their viewpoints. I already have been on one forum with an intolerance rule where all of the LGTBQ folks had full license to troll everyone, hurt and abuse because we were forced to support their sin and could not speak the Scripture to help. That is what you are advocating for, and you should know that. If the good folk cannot discuss the truth because they are silenced, the evil folk will go ahead anyway and the good folk are stripped of means to stop them.

Easy, darling, the forums aren't there, yet. I emphasize the "yet" because we could go there if we hold up tolerance and compassion as the ultimate virtues. Love is patient and kind, but it is also not sappy. I have no intention of being walked on by anyone who thinks with their heart instead of their head.

I am not angry and I am very calm.

That's the intimidating thing about our resident schoolmarm. She's always calm, calm and reasonable as stone. I think we need a solid rock to keep our emotions from flying away with us and God has been so good as to give us Sierepica Fuzzywalker.

I have no qualms about my posts on this subject, Scripture included, being on the front page of the New York Times. Let them yak about it. That just gives the truth a bigger chance to speak and reach those who need to hear it. You may be scared, but I am not.

Why am I reminded of the time Miss E threatened to call Angels down on us?

If anything Sierepica wrote made it to the front page of the New York Times, they'd probably have a spike in their readership. Conservative news outlets would be rejoicing that they printed something sensible for once.

Let Love Win

I know that song and I've got this to say about it.

Love is a lot more complicated than being nice to people and making sure everything is always lovely. Sometimes love is telling someone that they're making a fool of themselves and will be very hurt in the long run if they don't stop. Sometimes love is hashing out a problem with someone you love because your goal is to find the best solution possible rather than ignoring it and letting it fester.

Then please stop. Sierepica, I'm sure you are not meaning to, but your post has a bit of a harsh tone.

Her nature is earth, solid and sound. If the ground seems a little hard, it is even harder to those who have a long way to fall.

Silencing LGBTQ+ discussion isn't letting the evil run free, it's keeping the innocent, well innocent.

That was not the reason Goku shut it down, but you get the picture. Innocence is a beautiful thing. In a perfect world, it would be preserved for as long as possible. However, you cannot guard against a danger you do not know is there. Innocence, like harmlessness, is not a virtue and should not be treated as such.

I'm all for the preservation of innocence. I have motherly instincts too. However, we should consider why we are doing this. Are we preserving innocence or avoiding giving offense to the guilty?

We need to be respectful of our past Staff Mods.

Respect, as I have recently noticed, has tended to stray into hero worship.

This was unnecessary and a bit... Knee-jerky.

Once bitten, twice shy.

No? I didn't? I literally just said, "I would never say that, nor would I think that." You're putting words in my mouth.

Is she? There may be a little, or a lot, lost in translation.

I was explaining the mindset behind Goku's post,

His words seem to suggest otherwise.

I would like to impose a rule before any of the two young ladies can continue. You must repeat the other person's argument to the other person's satisfaction before stating your case. If the goal is understanding, I believe this will allow us to reach it much more quickly.

If you made it to the end of this post without skimming, congratulations.

Here is a chocolate peppermint ice cream roulage.

[Ariella_Newheart]

Ariella, dear, why don't you find a definition before we continue.

I would like to impose a rule before any of the two young ladies can continue.

I'd rather not continue, thank you. You both have ruined my appetite for this discussion most thoroughly.

-salutes and disappears into the shadows-

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Au revoir, Ariella. Feel free to come again when you've thought it over.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

My assessment at this point is that the Scripture is past the point of your emotional acceptance.

For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, even penetrating as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Common, in adolescence. And these are decision makers who wish to guard children’s innocence by using incorrect methods.

Since I stand with the Scriptures, I am falling out of your emotional acceptance as well. This does not surprise me. You are simply realizing the implications of what you believe and your sinful emotions are rebelling against it by accusing me of wrong.

This is not your fault, because you have not been taught methods to deal with this sort of emotional reaction to truth. I hold no resentment against you for this. It is simply a part of growing up, and deserves compassion from me instead of anger and rage.

I may not have done well when I first encountered this, but I am in a better state now. It is fortunate that my first reaction of anger and frustration was contained in a private message with old friend who may be more forgiving. I am sorry that I have been a fool here and not recognized what was going on in you all growing up. Your avatars look the same through the years.

Right now I am working on an essay on decision-making which could help, in general, but I see that it is time to let this go and listen to the emotions that you are giving me.

No? I didn't? I literally just said, "I would never say that, nor would I think that." You're putting words in my mouth.

In order for those words to be typed, you must have thought of them, and they were typed by you in order to appear on my screen. Thus, a contradiction between speech and action. The reaction is because said contradiction is emotionally painful.

I also don't like using the term "supporters" to describe either of us. We're not leaders who oppose one another and guide our "supporters" into battle.

The statement that you are replying to with this is a joke. I do not have a consistent strain of emotional acceptability among any group of people on this forum. In all venues where I exist, I am controversial and continually walking on thin emotional ice through no fault of my own. This is the price of being a writer in a fallen world who stands for the Gospel. I groan under this price at times, but it must be paid.

At times, I might have foolishly hoped that this forum might be an exception to the rule back the days where my posts received 16 likes on the regular. But I in the back of my mind, I was none too fooled.

I prefer emotional honesty to emotional acceptance. It is wiser to know when I have made a mistake and caused offense, rather for a person to try and do the impossible and emotionally support me. It cannot be done consistently by a fallen human being. It is too much of an expectation.

But it might also be that people see the same flaws in your arguments that I do. Please consider that option as well.

I do not see any flaws in my argument that you have pointed out, other then my mistaken perception of Goku which I have acknowledged. All I see is an emotional reaction to what I am saying.

Ma'am, I never suggested any of that. I'm on your side in this. I don't want to be forced into tolerating something that is against Scripture. I was explaining the mindset behind Goku's post, which has been forums precedent for this topic for a long time.

I did not see you on my side on this when this discussion had begun. I read this as you being convinced of my argument when you read those examples, and your emotions will not allow you to admit it, so you say that you were in agreement with me all along.

And yes, @Eerie_Coppernight, the forums aren’t there yet, but it can go that direction if unchecked. The emotional severity of the example does help break up the severity of the emotion coming at me, enough to break the reaction up and help the person see what they need to. The example really exists, though. It’s not fake.

resident schoolmarm.

I like this assessment of my character for this discussion. However, I am sometimes more creative than this assessment allows.

Meanwhile, the peppermint ice cream roulage looks delicious. I shall have to find a recipe.

[Micah_Wellpride]

If it is a debatable topic and some people don't want to talk about it, we shouldn't.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

I like this assessment of my character for this discussion. However, I am sometimes more creative than this assessment allows.

I never said a schoolmarm could not be creative. She is only severe because she knows her pupils can be better than they are.

If it is a debatable topic and some people don't want to talk about it, we shouldn't.

As I mentioned before, avoiding conflict will not make everything better. It will only sweep the mess under the rug where it will fester.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

If they don’t want to talk about it, nobody will force them to. They can simply not post.

Wanting your friends to agree with you without having to debate them is normal, but we live in a fallen world where these things come with a price. I am willing to pay this price. If you are not willing to pay this price, you will need to learn to accept that your friends will believe differently from you.

---

I have arrived at this point of emotional acceptance, which I was struggling with previously. I see the struggle my friends are going through, I know it, and I accept it. We’re going to have some emotional differences for awhile. It is simply part of the form of humanity as it matures, that this would occur.

It is not a concern beyond the fact that it is a decision making impairment, and it affects our moderation team since they are experiencing it as much as we are. Patience is required here, and a willingness to defer resolution. Emotions are powerful forces that do not let go easily.

In addition, our mod team, as well as myself, are at college and we have very little time. I have been writing these posts on borrowed time because I am a writer and fighting my inner composition is to squelch myself. Moderation does not require such emotional investment. So we must be patient with ourselves and each other.

I never said a schoolmarm could not be creative. She is only severe because she knows her pupils can be better than they are.

I agree.

[Jacoby_Elderfun1]

Just to set the record straight, Goku wasn't a believer when he established the guidelines in Law and Order. There is a difference in seeing these issues of the world through the eyes of someone who believes in Christ and someone who doesn't.

We made a decision to be able to discuss such topics as long as things don't get out of hand and stay within forum guidelines. If that doesn't take place, then such conversations will be put to a halt.

[Elijah_Overcape]

Ceasefire[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvfs2TUj-D4]

That's a good movie.

[Jessie_Dearsnap]

Okay, y'all... so this is getting a bit... out of control? I'm not here to side with anyone, but I am here to say that maybe people need to just step back and chill.

I'm coming from a different side of the spectrum where I'm helping raise kiddos. Now, with that piece of information, this whole subject is something I really would rather talk to them about rather then them finding a plethora of information and sides for or against said subject on a kids forum... Call me an over protective and sheltering parent/aunt if you want, it doesn't bother me. But this whole thing is starting to point fingers at people and their ideas and thoughts, which really needs to be turned down several notches. I'm in the process of getting my kiddo to be respectful of others and not say unnecessary and harsh things that can be unkind, and believe me... it's a real struggle. If she were to see this she would be like, "Well they are doing it and they're bigger and older." Yeah trust me, it makes raising kids a heck of a lot harder.

Some people may be more sensitive than others, but that's not always a bad thing. If someone is more sensitive, we need to be respectful of that and not be like "Welcome to the real world, it's rough out there." Just.. no...

Things over the screen can sometimes cause people to be more... abrupt and not as sensitive to other people. We don't always know who is on the other side of the screen. We have had kids on here leave because they see this stuff happening and tensions high... and honestly, that's really sad. They came here to make friends and maybe to get away from the pressures happening in the real world around them... I wouldn't want my kiddo on here because she has enough stuff going on in her life and she doesn't need to see all of this... and all the unkind things that tend to happen when tension is high on here like right now.

I'm not looking for an argument here, but I would like each of you to just stop and think. Not point fingers or try to emphasize your ideas right now. You've each stated your opinions, which is fine, but when people start talking about what the other person is or isn't doing or feeling or acting, that's when things need to stop. From what I'm noticing, a lot of miscommunication is going on... so I think everyone just needs to step back and relax, not try to see what your next debate response can be to the other person to drive your points home. When things get heated, that's when people need to step back... not keep going.

If you feel the desire to confront me about this, just DM me over chess or something, but I think things have gone far enough on here for the time being.

Again, I'm coming from the parental point of view, so I'm going off of what I'm comfortable with my kiddo reading and seeing, be it content wise or interaction wise. Let's try to be good examples for them.

Thank you!

[Hans_Oddcraft]

Jog my memory, but when did any of us actually say something harsh or unkind regarding a member of the LGBTQ community? Beware that constructive criticism is not unkind even though it may seem to be to a “peacemaker” personality type. Criticism is one of the best ways to learn.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

I don't think she was referring to a member of that community. I think she was referring to all the times when, regardless of the topic of conversation, we've been less than kind to each other. You have to admit, there have been times when we've been reckless with our words.

[Hans_Oddcraft]

Isn’t that something that should be assumed in debate? People who don’t want to get involved in debates shouldn’t get involved, although not defending your beliefs makes your beliefs look bad. And those who do want to get involved in debates need to recognize that offense comes whenever you put your beliefs up to be judged. Truth is actually going to be the most offensive because it means you are objectively wrong and that can’t be blamed on another person.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Truth is actually going to be the most offensive because it means you are objectively wrong and that can’t be blamed on another person.

You should never assume that you have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Every perspective is biased in one way or another. By learning from different perspectives, we can get a clearer picture of the truth.

As for the rest of your argument....

Proverbs 12:18

Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.

While we should be thick-skinned and not easily angered, the responsibility does not lie on the recipient alone. If both parties are Christians, both parties are accountable for treating each other in a loving manner. The giving and taking of offense requires two, one to give it and one to receive it. It is easy to tell others not to receive it, but not as easy to train ourselves not to give it.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

although not defending your beliefs makes your beliefs look bad.

I agree with this, in the context of debate itself.

However, for a few reasons I am inclined to think that the empaths and peacemakers are not helpless victims of the debaters. The mystery defense, for one thing, and I remember that a professor of an empathic nature gave me quite a challenge without ever really resorting to a debate. There was no way he could have won in debate - his was a hopelessly incompetent debater and I destroyed him multiple times, yet the relationship remained strangely intact. He challenged my emotions instead of my beliefs, as I recall, in a non-abusive manner. Never underestimate emotional strength as opposed to the strength of logic.

And yet for some reason, on every forum I’ve ever been on, the debaters come out, and there are always those people who say “debate is ugly and evil and hurts people and we are all victims of them”. Which…doesn’t stand up to debate. The debaters destroy all their arguments that are based on that premise because it is a lie. Then they proceed to feel even more victimized and resentful.

What may be happening here is that people with debate skill may be responding to an emotional challenge as debate, thus dragging the other person toward debate, which is kind of unfair.

I do think Ari and Jess are trying to develop the ability that my professor had, but they are not quite there yet, and they are displeased at their own incompetence. They have the power to blast emotional evil, but they do not realize they can do so without making a single logical argument or stopping a single debate. Logic and emotions exist in parallel and in relationship, not opposition, and so do the defenses that use them.

If I debate or even win at debate, what is that to an empath? They care about what I am feeling. They are in another realm. And that is how the relationship between me and that professor ended, because I have little emotional strength. He was controlling my emotions and I was controlling his logical reasoning, which was frightening to both of us. It’s scary to recognize how intensely mutually vulnerable we both were.

So I know this skill exists, but I do not yet know how to develop it. I much prefer debate and enjoy it instead. I’ve also never seen it on a forum either, so there might be complications of why it can’t exist here that I am not aware of. To hold my grade in abeyance is to exert emotional pressure on me, and to debate in response and win is to exert logical pressure on him and tip him toward an accusation of incompetence and thus humiliation.

So my advice to the empaths is this: the debate is just a piece of reality, and you need to be able to allow reality to exist. Challenging evil emotions is not really anything to do with debate. Debate doesn’t even expose evil emotions or emotional manipulation, actually. And that is as far as I know without guessing and darkening counsel.

---

Meanwhile, I maintain that Jess’s perspective as a parent deserves a fair hearing.

[Pig_Larkcape1]

lol you guys have such talent for using so many words to say very little.

[Beth_Applemine]

I, for one, am not learning much beneficial information from this argument. The constructive criticism seemed less constructive and just like criticism. Miss_S seemed to be using sharp arrows and Ari was deflecting them with her shield, sometimes getting hit. Also innocent bystanders were getting smacked by stray bullets. Idk, just what I feel like I’m seeing.

[Hans_Oddcraft]

You should never assume that you have the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

When I say truth I mean the objective facts presented in the debate in support of opinions. Not the opinions themselves.

As for everything else you two said, I don’t really have a reason to disagree.