Members' Union

[Levi_Orangeburst]

we shouldn't be wanting to show them all the garbage in the world.

Still haven't come to the conclusion that it IS garbage, because it's not. It's people.

We shouldn't want to be cramming all this gestures at the world in their face.

Of course not, and I would never want to do that, or try to educate someone else's children, but I just don't think it was wrong for me to assume that I could talk/debate about the subject.

It is up to his/her parents.

Correct. Of course.

the better part of discretion is knowing when to stay silent.

When would you have recommended I not speak?

Not for you to decide

Of course not, my bad.

It's not up to you to decide how they should parent their child.

Not at all, I was just stating my opinion.

Listen, I don't mean to offend anyone, I just think that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with talking about homosexuality.

[caleb_Larkmagnet1]

Maybe not, but it's against the rules. So we're not gonna do it.

[Levi_Orangeburst]

but it's against the rules. So we're not gonna do it.

I understand that, and I of course do not want to break the rules in any way. Keaton's reaction to the debate kinda just shocked me. Sorry about all this, and I hope none of you all think of me differently because of my views.

[Lilliana_Umbrellascope]

They are people, they are sinners just like you and I, but a lot of people it's considered a much more sensitive sin because it's nature. Some of the younger kids here might not even know... I mean, you said you thought kids should know when they are seven? When I was seven I thought God just gave babies to people who prayed for one. Now I'm sure not everyone had the same experience as me, but if there is a chance they don't know about that why should we be talking about this?

[Levi_Orangeburst]

but if there is a chance they don't know about that why should we be talking about this?

Correct, I assumed and I shouldn't have. I apologize.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

While I do think the @Iliara_Mustardtop’s correction on this matter is wise, it still strikes me as a double standard.

I write this post:

Real World Politics

No warning.

I write this post also:

Law and Order! Or a good place for a friendly argument

No warning.

I also write this post:

Law and Order! Or a good place for a friendly argument

Nothing.

Then when @Levi_Orangeburst and @Pig_Larkcape1 bring it up, homosexuality is NOT allowed. Let’s slam on them. Is that really the right thing to do?

Consider also the discussion of XXY chromosomes. That comes in one the tail end of a discussion of non-binary which featured commentary from @Hans_Oddcraft, actually. I remember that in the midst of that whole recent flak Hans and Xonos got into a debate and Iliara had to shut them down. So not only do we have a double standard where Miss_S is apparently given writer privilege and left off the hook, but a reversal double standard in which one person was able to talk about it and now can’t. The latter can be emotionally painful. It feels like a betrayal, if you can feel it.

On the other hand none of this should have ever happened in the first place.

Are we really in a position to be radicals and challenge the lack of information that parents give to their kids? I hated that growing up and went to the library to try and get more information, digging up knowledge on all sorts of things, but I’m not everyone. There’s also an early child development component to all of this that I don’t understand. At some age, kids can’t tell fantasy from reality, then at some point they can, there is something you get at 16 and 24 headscratch. If we’re going to be rebels, we are enticing kids into Ephesians 6:1 and Colossians 3:20 violations aka sin, and deserve to have millstones tied around our necks and thrown into the sea.

The only way to challenge sheltering in accordance with God’s commands is to challenge the parents who do it directly, using very specific logical arguments. You’d probably need case studies and research over the early child development thing. Some of you may fully wish to dig up those case studies and proclaim that not talking about homosexuality or other adult topics causes more harm than good. Go forth and conquer. For the rest of us, though, that battle has not been won. And one kid might need it and be scared and feel unsafe.

But then again, them not talking about it makes us want to talk about it because people want to know the truth about it, and then you come ask me because nobody says anything.

Do you really expect children to have enough self control to avoid something like this? If I was younger right now I would most definitely not be able to steer clear of this.

It’s better for a kid to see a marker and know what they are getting into than opening Law and Order, expecting to see arguments about Hot Wheels cars and toy rabbits, and transgenderism! Ah, my parents said no! “Mom! This forum is evil they are talking about intersex chromosomes!”

Just saying. What I said is not a full, complete solution. What I am saying is that it might be better than the situation we have now.

[Jones_Elderview]

more sensitive sin

I thought all sins were equal. Doesn't the Bible say that somewhere?

[Lilliana_Umbrellascope]

You have to read the whole sentence:

a lot of people consider it a much more sensitive sin because of it's nature

All sins are equal, but because of the basis it's a more mature subject, and why people are more hesitant to speak of it. Because of that, it has become in the eyes of the church one of the worst things one could ever do which has resulted in a lot of judgement and hating. I was meaning it was more sensitive of it being talked about, not the sin itself.

[Jones_Elderview]

You have to read the whole sentence

I can't stop reading a sentence half way, it's not really something I'm able to do.

I read it, I didn't understand what it meant accept for the beginning.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

When would you have recommended I not speak?

In the beginning when you first took it into your head to add to the conversation.

Of course not, and I would never want to do that, or try to educate someone else's children, but I just don't think it was wrong for me to assume that I could talk/debate about the subject.

It is for the same reason that parents do not discuss money issues in front of the children. One does not want to burden them with knowledge beyond their capacity.

I just think that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with talking about homosexuality.

In normal society, yes. If you, I and a handful of older forumers were all sitting in a cafe together, we could discuss it until we were blue in the face. However, a game forum is not normal society.

Keaton's reaction to the debate kinda just shocked me.

It did strike me as unsporting, but he is still a child.

I hope none of you all think of me differently because of my views.

I admire a libertarian spirit, but I do understand who you are and why you are doing this. While I think your intentions are good, I'm beginning to doubt your methods.

Children need order and boundaries to grow properly. That's why parents set rules. As big a fan as I am of chaos, I can appreciate order for its necessity. Nothing would be able to function properly without order, and that is what we are ultimately discussing.

[Jones_Elderview]

In the beginning when you first took it into your head to add to the conversation.

That's kinda harsh, Eerie.

[Micah_Wellpride]

It should be up to his or her parents discretion.

All that needs to be said ^

[Elizabeth_Newroad]

Peeps. Stop being so passive aggressive. Levi already apologized, so can we just drop it?

_{I mean, yeah, I may be a little late coming in here, but it’s not fun being ganged up on by a bunch of forumers who are determined to make their point.}

[Levi_Orangeburst]

In the beginning when you first took it into your head to add to the conversation.

I think I brought up some good points...

I'm beginning to doubt your methods.

Um, what do you mean my "methods'?

That's kinda harsh, Eerie.

Not at all, I like correction.

Levi already apologized, so can we just drop it?

Thank ya ma'am.

but it’s not fun being ganged up on by a bunch of forumers who are determined to make their point.

I don't feel like I'm being ganged up on, everyone has good points, and I like to hear them. But it can get tiring over time, lol.

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

I'm not trying to gang up on @Levi_Orangeburst, I'm actually trying to defend him.

Because of that, it has become in the eyes of the church one of the worst things one could ever do which has resulted in a lot of judgement and hating.

This is true, and it is what my first post that I linked in my last post was meant to address. It is not a sin to suffer from a particular temptation that few others suffer from. To use a mundane example, Christian biologists suffer from temptations that people who never do that job may never see. Does that mean that they are particularly evil? No. Then why are people who suffer from this ostracized?

It has to do with politics. It has to do with how the church avoids persecution and promotes itself in America, and it has led to a lot of suffering and a lot of injustices.

Here's the problem: if your parents allow you to talk about homosexuality and transgenderism, or you are out in college out on your own, then me withholding information from you about it is also wrong. It leads to suffering not only for you, but all the people who suffer from it you may encounter. We also have an obligation to present the Gospel to these people. They are not exempt from God's kingdom. It helps to understand what you're up against in terms of sin so you don't trip over their emotions on the way in.

So if you want to know the truth about sheltering and homosexuality and the ugliness behind it, here's a summary. If you're a kid who is still living with your parents and they have sheltered you, this might be hard to read. So don't read it. It's a shocker.

Summary

puts flashlight under face and whispers It's all about politics. Or mostly about politics. Let me explain.

In America, politics is dictated by the majority vote, in large part. So the easiest way to get more votes is to have more people who vote for the "right" cause, i.e. Christian-aligned causes. Again, the church is looking to protect itself from persecution in America in order to support foreign missions. That's cool.

But how do we get more people to vote for Christian causes? We have heterosexual relationships that have more people as a source of new voters. And how do we ensure that they vote for the "right" cause? We shelter them. That's the ugly. Anti-abortion? If we don't abort people, we have more Christians. Why do you think we have such an investment in marriage and staying together and all of that, books churning off the presses? There are more marriage Christian books almost than the other ones. More people. More people to vote against persecution. Why are Christian women encouraged to be wives and mothers? Hehe, politics.

So we slam the homosexuals because they don't make more people. At least, not easily. We don't want our kids to be them, because they won't have good Christian children and vote for the anti-persecution cause. In fact, they will vote for the other side and bring persecution down on us! Aieeee! So we don't talk about that. If kids don't know about it, they won't do it and will vote against it.

Sheltering has nothing to do with the Gospel. Sheltering is political, aside from the early child development argument. But the early child development argument is "wait until you're older to see this, you're not ready for it because of your brain development", but sheltering parades around spiritual arguments that if kids see X media, their soul will be sold to the devil, that they will walk away from God and become gasp! a dreaded unbeliever. Never mind that they already are one until they accept the Gospel, which is their decision anyway. And what are good decisions based on? Information. Kids need more spiritual information, not less. I firmly and absolutely believe this, which should be absolutely no surprise. What have I been doing for the past 5 years? Giving you spiritual information.

The Gospel is powerful enough to save a child on its own. Giving a child more information about the evil they need to reject does not weaken the Gospel's power to save.

Now they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for the little ones, saying, “Allow the children to come to Me, and do not forbid them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Children are commanded - get that? - to not let people despise them for their age. Children are to be guided, given information, disciplined. They do not need to be spiritually protected. If they believe the Gospel. they already have the power to fight their own battles - and win! And part of the information to win spiritual battles is information about the enemy and his tactics.

Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it.

Kids come with sin natures and lies pre-installed. Good parenting is getting the pre-installed lies out, hopefully without adding any more. Obviously it's not perfect and the kid will probably have to remove a few as part of their own sanctification process, but a good parent is a good and helpful start.

It's spiritual insecurity on part of the parents, as well, that they don't want to go through the lie removal process or train their kid on how to do it themselves. The Gospel is powerful enough to overcome Satan's lies. The Gospel is powerful enough for spiritual battle. A 5-year-old with the Holy Spirit can spiritually battle an unbelieving adult and win. A farmer with the Holy Spirit is more powerful than the mightiest king in the world. All that king can do is just kill him, and he's going to heaven, he'll be back in the Millennium and he'll be king over the very land that guy was the ruler of.

It's the unbelievers that actually need to be sheltered. They are the ones who can't take information that contradicts the lies they believe. So why are Christians notorious for this?

Because while the Gospel is powerful enough to save people and empower them for spiritual battles, it's not powerful enough to convince you to vote for the right political party, and "do the right thing" by deciding to get married and have kids. Don't evangelize the adults because they might vote for the persecutors and we most certainly don't want anyone to challenge our political beliefs that might actually be at odds with the Gospel. Oh, and we'll just kill all the transgender people and the homosexuals with suicide by outlawing their temptations and struggles (or forcing them to be in hetero relationships where they may be miserable), and then everything will be just fine and we'll have our little Christian baby factory.

Miss_S is NOT impressed, let me tell you!

This political agenda is sinful in all sorts of wrong ways. It encourages lust. It turns women into reproduction machines instead of human beings. And it is something that the church isn't supposed to do. The church isn't supposed to enlist unbeliever politicians to fight our spiritual battles for us. We're more than powerful enough. We should be taking the fight to the enemy ourselves!

And the Gospel is for everyone. People who suffer from homosexuality and transgender need the power to overcome that temptation. They need the Gospel more than ever. You want to deny that to them? Count me out. They can't accept the Gospel if they are dead from suicide either. Ignore adult evangelism in favor of birthing? We've got enough trouble evangelizing the people who are already alive, and you're sitting around playing checkers with your girlfriend in some delusional utopia. Get real.

So yeah. Sheltering makes me angry. It's not any sort of spiritual protection, it's teaching kids to subscribe to a nasty set of political lies. That's the agenda, and that's why the homosexuals are swept under the rug and we don't talk about them.

That's the truth, children. Now make sure to vote the right way when you're 18 like everyone else.

Real evil. But it must be challenged in the right way, in accordance with God's commands. We cannot blame the victims of this philosophy for what has happened to them or entice them to sin. That is the twisted nature of the thing. They are not sinning by viewing the media, but they are sinning by disobeying their parents. This media is sinful! It's sinful because you forbid it, because you made it that way for your kid. It's just information about the sin nature, the thing that the Gospel overcomes.

But again, this is just my perspective. I'm not a mom. Maybe if I was one, my perspective would change. I doubt it. Also, if you read the summary, don't get angry at your parents. They were trying to do what was best for you, and they are not worthy of condemnation for not being versed in politics or theology. Cut them some slack. They are, like you, only human.

So yeah, if I had my way I would actually unshelter everyone and train them for spiritual warfare. But I'm an unsheltered abuse victim, so what do I know about parenting? Negative two. If I ever have a kid, it will probably be a scared one who needs sheltering and hides behind Mommy, instead of the bold fighter that I was. That is why I have deferred to the rules and the consortium of parents in submission. And obviously, if you have a dispute with the summary, call me on it. You probably have a point. (But maybe use a summary of your own or take it to chess or other means so we don't bother poor @Iliara_Mustardtop anymore than she's already going to be when she sees this.)

[Pig_Larkcape1]

In the beginning when you first took it into your head to add to the conversation.

Let people voice their different opinions or this discussion becomes more of an echo chamber than it already is.

Why are we telling people to shut up and sit down when we should be helping them learn by facilitating the conversation.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Thinks for a bit.

Why indeed.

I seem to remember mentioning once that they would learn about it eventually and it would be better to learn about it from a Christian perspective.

Why is this different?

Is it because I'm affected by the fact that a kid I didn't know very well left the forums of his own discretion?

Most likely.

It's a topic I would love to discuss particularly because it is so touchy. It is touchy, as the good Miss Fuzzywalker mentioned, because of the politics surrounding it. If the same people had chosen pet preferences as their cause, we might be similarly touchy about keeping lions and tigers as pets.

I think I'll just keep my own mouth shut from here on out and let everyone else decide what to do.

[Iliara_Mustardtop]

Since I'm reading this in physics class, I can't really respond to this as comprehensively as I would've liked, but I do want to point out that @Sierepica_Fuzzywalker is right about the double standard. Some of that is not coming to a concrete idea of what I thought should be allowed until recently. Another is the fact that we don't all agree as mods and I have been ignored before when attempting to close down or redirect a conversation. Some of it is me just skimming the forums for lack of time, and not catching something whose appropriateness or not I would've discussed with you all, given more time to think about it.
I do apologize.

[Levi_Orangeburst]

I think I'll just keep my own mouth shut from here on out and let everyone else decide what to do.

Decisions for the community are made BY the community, if we stop chiming in with our ideas, then no actual community decisions will be made.

And lets face it, you usually have way better stuff to say then I do. So please don't keep your mouth shut.

I have been ignored before when attempting to close down or redirect a conversation

I know this is partially directed towards me, and yes, I did in a way start the conversation over... more then once. But that's just because I was confused at what we were actually not supposed to talk about. I assumed we could talk about it if we were more civil, and not as in depth, so that is what I did. Turns out that was a mistake on my part. I am sorry for that.

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Decisions for the community are made BY the community, if we stop chiming in with our ideas, then no actual community decisions will be made.

Yes, but the decision was already made by Goku Ironheart. He's the reason the moderators keep shutting down those conversations at all. The reason it keeps coming back is because the community wants to talk about it.

And lets face it, you usually have way better stuff to say then I do. So please don't keep your mouth shut.

That depends on a lot. You have good things to say as well if you weren't so afraid of yourself.