Law and Order! Or a good place for a friendly argument

Sierepica_Fuzzywalker 2022-10-09 00:10:01 UTC #5210

Hrm. This isn’t quite a criticism of Beth’s opinion, but the chain of reasoning

God doesn’t do what I want
therefore
God doesn’t care about me
therefore
I hate God.

seems to be what is to be human. However, we cannot say that all specific instances of God-hating come from this chain of reasoning, even though this chain of reasoning likely affects all human beings. There are other chains of reasoning in the human brain that can give “I hate God” as a result.

I think what Eerie was specifying was that this woman’s negative emotion was specifically coming from a faulty understanding of evil, not from this. Therefore it’s more likely to be a chain of reasoning that looks like this:

Evil is [something I do not want]
and
God does this [thing I do not want]
therefore
God is the source of evil
therefore
I hate God.

You’ll notice that these two chains of reasoning are similar, since they are focused on what the person wants, but the difference is huge. The first chain of reasoning at the top of this post reflects selfishness, and the second chain of reasoning reflects an intellectual misunderstanding of God. Someone who is under faulty reasoning is different than a flippant narcissist, and must be dealt with accordingly.

This is a common error in Christian thinking, to apply a universal chain of sin nature reasoning to all unbelievers and all forms of anti-Christian thought, and thus assume that there is one method to spread the Gospel that works in all cases. I am not saying that Beth has become a victim of assuming that one way to spread the Gospel is correct, but I am cautioning against this because it is a very sneaky error. The sin nature is not a solved game and has a limitless number of forms. Yes, the universal sin nature reasoning chain one applied to the person is correct and you are absolutely right - it is truly driving their actions because they are a sinner. However, the Christian who does this is not paying attention to the person and what they actually want to discuss with them.

And when said Christian does that, they are not really loving them and being rather rude.

Eerie_Coppernight 2022-10-09 01:03:29 UTC #5211

I never said anything about the woman's reasoning. I hardly know if she is reasoning at all. For all I know her train of thought runs along much more charitable lines.

Bad things happen to good people.
God permits these bad things to happen.
God is evil.
I hate God.

Satan can twist even a generous nature against God. It just goes to show that natural gifts are no help towards real Godliness.

It is possible that my supposition is merely a mask for something more like what Sierepica suggested in which case I'd have to tackle the former before I touched the latter.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-09 01:10:48 UTC #5212

Last time I set foot in this topic was in 2020, still flaming as ever.

What is the title of the latest discussion please?

Eerie_Coppernight 2022-10-09 01:21:04 UTC #5213

I'm trying to muster a few bits of wisdom before suggesting anything definite to my acquaintance. So far, I've gotten some solid ideas from Sierepica, a good reminder from Beth, a some encouraging things from other people.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-09 01:28:15 UTC #5214

Noted

Honestly, I would want to have a talk with her and understand where she is coming from. I can say what I want, but I want to know everything she has to say, and I would be asking questions that would challenge both of our thinkings. Hopefully we would come to an understanding and see if she is saying those things because she is not aware of knowing better, or because she is trying to frame God purposely.

Eerie_Coppernight 2022-10-09 01:35:23 UTC #5215

Yes, Sierepica helped me consider several possible lines of thought for this woman. I'd have to use the Socratic method to discover which is most accurate.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-09 01:44:43 UTC #5216

Looking forward to a more accurate situation.

Jayhawk_Greencape 2022-10-09 19:20:34 UTC #5217

Also, I would recommend listening to her story and reasoning before telling her to do something that may not apply to her.

(i.e. "Hey! You talked to me about this before, and it seems you are in a bad spiritual place right now. Is now a bad time to talk about why?")

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-09 19:34:53 UTC #5218

🤨 Did something bad happen before?

Beckendorf_Direscope 2022-10-10 00:34:19 UTC #5219

For sure. Listen first to understand, then speak to be understood.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-10 00:37:28 UTC #5220

This came to mind when you made the post

Eerie_Coppernight 2022-10-10 01:56:08 UTC #5221

Oh, I certainly plan to do a great deal of listening. I'll have to in order to discover her frame of mind. I have considered the possibility that it may be something like this, to borrow @Sierepica_Fuzzywalker's format .

Certain people have hurt me.
Those people are evil.
They claim to be Christians.
God is evil.
I hate God.

It's a not uncommon train of thought and one that should be treated with a deal of care and sympathy.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-10 02:01:09 UTC #5222

That is just sad. Sad that things like this happen to people, that they have been misdirected.

Eerie_Coppernight 2022-10-10 02:03:50 UTC #5223

As I said, it is not uncommon. Christians, especially those raised in the church, often forget that it's not the things they don't do that make them Christians but the things they do.

Emman_Jumpsong1 2022-10-10 02:07:57 UTC #5224

I was in agreement

I think it’s both. Example, when they are idle when there is a thing they can make right, won’t. But come to think of it, that was part of your point.

Mr_T5 2022-10-14 23:01:57 UTC #5225

Can I take opinions on my speech on the Omnipresence of God? Here ya go guys.

Beth_Applemine 2022-10-15 23:07:38 UTC #5226

I’m not really a speech person myself, so take all my opinions with a grain of salt.
I think it’s pretty good, perhaps a little unrefined (don’t ask me how, I don’t know), but it’s good. Probably better than my speeches...

Beckendorf_Direscope 2022-10-16 14:43:51 UTC #5227

The beginning paragraph is very gripping and draws me in as a reader, but when you shift from the funeral to the car crash scene, the present tense stays the same, which makes it difficult to follow. Maybe switch to past tense when you "go back in time" to the day of the crash.

I have no idea about the context of your presentation, but the tone really informal. I love how you site Biblical references as well as the wisdom of A. W. Tozer.

I love the ending! It makes a poignant statement about the reality of denying God's authority over everything.

Mr_T5 2022-10-17 22:01:35 UTC #5228

Huh... I hadn't thought about that. I'll fix that. Thanks guys!

Mr_T5 2022-10-17 22:04:24 UTC #5229

AttentionGrabber:
You’re sitting at your best friend’s funeral. You did everything with them. Traveled, worked, recreated with them. Last week they suffered from crash on the intersection between HW 99 and McDougall Rd. You were heading to the beach with them. You were driving, while they were in the passenger seat. You pressed the gas pedal to cross 99 onto HW 18, but you didn’t see the black Ford F250 in your blind spot coming at you from the right. It hit you in the passenger door and nearly killed them. You went spinning into the grass. The Ambulance showed up to pick you up, but by that time, your friend had lost too much blood. So the Police called a Hearse while you enter the Ambulance. So here you are, sitting, still bandaged, at the funeral. You’re asking God, where are you? Well, that’s why I’m here.

How's that?