Law and Order! Or a good place for a friendly argument

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

What is going on.

[Noah_Ladderfun]

I have no idea, something above my brain level I guess.

[Miss_E3]

True but the " end times" according to me have already started long ago after Jesus rose again that's when things started to Decay and the end times have come. I don't mean the actual tribulation end times. there is a specific event that starts at 7 year period the Antichrist signing the peace treaty in Israel & rebuilding the 3 temple but we can still say that the end times is now.

Also it's true that people in the past thought that world war II was the end times etc but it could not have been possible because God's two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 are going to be seen by the whole entire world during that period of time it was not possible because we did not have the technology for that to happen.

now today because of social media, news channels ,televisions, smartphones & laptops everywhere & computers everywhere, screens everywhere it is possible for God's two witnesses message to be preached throughout all the ends of the Earth and God said that the gospel would be preached throughout all the ends of the Earth and in the end times.

as each day goes by it's obvious we get closer to the tribulation and that is not something that Christians have to fear because with Jesus Christ you have eternal life but I'm just saying that because of today's advancements in technology were definitely not getting farther away from the prophecies but closer to it and many things about the tribulation were not possible during the time period when people thought it was the end like in world war II. there was not enough technology for God's future two witnesses to be seen by the whole Earth but the Bible clearly says that when they die that everyone from all Nations languages and tribes would send gifts to each other and celebrate their death if we did not have these advancement in technology no one would know all around the world who they are but now everyone is going to see them throughout the end of the Earth. Only in this day & age with the advantages of technology are these things possible.

I agree that it could be high technology made by humans but I do not rule out that it could be the possibility they are demons. Or humans working with demons or posssed by demons And I think as Christians we should be careful to be quick to say that it's not demons because people seem to forget today that Angels and demons still exist today.

Either way I believe that the UFOs could help serve the purpose to help the Antichrist and false prophet with their false delusion and lie that they will be telling. I believe they will be used as part of a lie and strong delusion and I believe if they're saying that they are real aliens I think it's a lie.

I'm sure the devil is the one who wanted all these advancements in technology to lead people astray and cause them to sin and to watch all kind of filthy media & listen to immoral music & movies, but the truth is God is laughing and he has the upper hand because God's two witnesses are just going to take control of all that media and use it to preach the gospel message throughout all the ends of the Earth along with all the other Christians who want to witness and share God's word.

God can take what Satan tried to use to harm people to share and spread the gospel message. I know some people like the Mennonites from certain sects or Amish people etc have a fear of technology and using it but I believe if you're using technology to share the gospel message there is no harm done it is a tool that can be used for good and evil. Unfortunately the media outlets are mostly used for evil but God is going to give people the power to share the gospel message and everyone is going to see it because of the technology. so I'm happy that the technology is here because now the gospel can easily be shared all around the world.

So will I be alive before the end time start ?it is very possible but I have no right to say that it is certain but I will say that the people during world war 2 were wrong it could not have been the end times because it would have been impossible for everyone to see God's two witnesses because smartphones ,social media, YouTube etc did not exist now everything is readily available when two people cough up natural fireballs it's going to go viral right away all around the world online because no one's ever seen two humans cough up fireballs before

unfortunately no one's also ever seen someone make fire fall down from the sky like the wicked Antichrist & false prophet are going to do so there's going to be a lot of people deceived by the Antichrist because he's going to cause a strong delusion and I'm sorry but I definitely believe that Antichrist and false prophet will be using false signs and wonders in the sky and yes I do believe that the Antichrist and false prophet will be using high technology to do them but I won't deny that it could be possible they're getting the information for that technology from demons because the Bible says that they are going to be controlled by Satan and the way that wickedness works so I'm not saying it's not technology that can cause these false signs and wonders in the sky, I'm just saying that I believe that there's demonic Powers behind them. & That they probably will be using technology & demonic power together.

[Miss_E3]

Also Hans just wanted to point out I'm pretty sure you're wrong when you said that John 3:16 was written before Jesus was born it was Jesus Christ himself who said those words to Nicodemus and John 3:16 is the Bible verse that is the core for the Christian Gospel message.

I'm not sure where you got the information that said that John 3:16 was written before Jesus Christ was born if you think it is true can you please show me the resource where you found that information? Because upon my research on Christian websites I have not found a single Source saying that that verse was written before Jesus was born

[https://insider.pureflix.com/prayer-faith/john-316-meaning-understand-this-transformative-bible-verse]

[Sierepica_Fuzzywalker]

Do you think Christians should be pro Israel, or is it possible for Christians to be pro Palestine, or in support of a two state nation & on neither side?

Okay, so I went to research this out carefully. The off the cuff answer is yes, we should support Israel, or else we will suffer the consequences:

And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

4 So Abram went away as the Lord had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

This is a promise to Abraham concerning the nation of Israel.

Also, we are called, as Christians, to respect the governments that have been placed over us. So if I went to Isreal, I would be responsible for obeying the Isreali government, as per Romans 13. So being "pro-Palestinian" and going over there to incite violence against the Isreali government would not be biblically condoned for Christians. To the extent that the Palestinians want to rebel against the Isreali Government, supporting them is not okay.

However, I don't have to agree with every decision made by the Isreali government, especially since I don't live there. For example, I have heard about people in Isreal who lived there when the government took control who have been forced out of their homes and made to move away.

Jordan occupied the West Bank, which was much of the area assigned by the UN to the stillborn Palestinian state, and more than 600,000 Arab refugees fled their homes in an exodus that had begun even before May 1948. Some were forced out by Israeli troops, notably from the towns of Lod and Ramla in the strategic area near Tel Aviv airport. The Israeli government refused to permit these refugees, who gathered under UN care in camps in Gaza, the West Bank, southern Lebanon, and Syria, to return to their homes inside Israel, and many Palestinians were to stay in these camps indefinitely.

Despite its victory in the 1948 war, Israel soon faced new and severe threats. Arab refugees infiltrated the armistice lines seeking to reclaim fields and houses. Soon, irregular Arab forces, drawn from refugee camps outside Israel’s borders, began to attack Israeli villages, farms, and road traffic. Israel also contained a sizable minority of Arabs (then roughly one-sixth of the population), who were kept under military rule in certain areas until 1966 and, in some cases, were relocated away from border zones.

[https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/Establishment-of-Israel]
[https://www.britannica.com/place/Israel/Armistice-and-refugees]

This is a violation of God's law, notably that the Isrealites were not supposed to oppress aliens who were living among them, because they were slaves in the land of Egypt.

14 “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether one of your brethren or one of the aliens who is in your land within your gates. 15 Each day you shall give him his wages, and not let the sun go down on it, for he is poor and has set his heart on it; lest he cry out against you to the Lord, and it be sin to you.

[...]

19 “When you reap your harvest in your field, and forget a sheaf in the field, you shall not go back to get it; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. 20 When you beat your olive trees, you shall not go over the boughs again; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. 21 When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, you shall not glean it afterward; it shall be for the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow. 22 And you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt; therefore I command you to do this thing.

“You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

“Also you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the heart of a stranger, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

So if the Jewish people wish to live in the land of Isreal, they should treat the people that were there before them with human decency. Unless they are rebelling against the Government, in which case the Isreali government is well within its rights to defend itself.

The Two-state solution was proposed by the British, who are great at solving conflict. (NOT) See the Balfour Declaration information here: [https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/history-of-israel] The British are also responsible for the fun conflict known as Iraq. Note that the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) supports the two-state solution. This is their perspective on the whole thing here [https://www.aljazeera.com/program/episode/2009/8/12/timeline-history-of-a-revolution/] [https://www.history.com/topics/middle-east/palestine] However, at this point (and this is just my perspective) the two-state solution really seems to be a false hope. I (personally) would support a one-state solution in which the Palestinians are allowed to return to their homes if they submit to the Isreali government and agree not to kill any more people or blow any more things up.

(The Arabs, however, seem to be very into killing people and blowing things up in general, in case you haven't seen the news, so the Isreali government probably isn't inclined to believe that they will ever submit to the government. This is the Isreali government's perspective: [https://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/AboutIsrael/History/Pages/HISTORY-%20The%20State%20of%20Israel.aspx])

This would get people out of the refugee camps. If you want to know what it's like to live in a refugee camp, check out the book When Stars Are Scattered. That is a graphic novel with comics and pictures. You'll probably like that one. People can spend their entire lives in refugee camps - it's not fun. Another book to understand what is going on in Palestine is called Outside The Ark, which talks directly about that experience.

So it's technically possible to be "on neither side" as a Christian. In fact, as Christians, we technically are on neither side by default. I also would see no occasion to remark on those who feed and clothe Palestinian refugees or treat them like human beings or even supporting a return of these people to their homes. By all means, I would see them accept the Gospel as much as anyone else. But, as I said before, there is no place for us supporting a campaign of violence against the Isreali government. That isn't biblical.

---

My stance is I believe Jesus Christ is the king of Israel and our God is the God of Israel and that he gave the promise to Abraham that that land, the promised land of Israel belong to his chosen nation which is the Israelites the Jews so I think that I'm supposed to be pro Israel but at the same time I know that the Jews who have rejected Jesus Christ will fall for the Antichrist and the false prophet and so are the palestines the Muslims because the Bible says that the Antichrist is going to make a peace treaty with Israel and the palestines and make a false worldwide piece with the rest of the world so I don't support that of course but I think I'm supposed to support Israel because after that Jesus Christ is going to come and defeat the Antichrist and Jesus Christ is the king of Israel and Jesus Christ is a Jew and the Bible says that He is the King of Israel.

For this one, I defer to the Jewish scholar Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum to explain. Your knowledge is correct - the Antichrist will be making a peace treaty with Isreal, and the current state of Isreal is a regathering for God's judgement.

...when the Bible speaks of a worldwide regathering of the Jewish people, it actually speaks of two distinct worldwide regatherings. [...] First, there is to be a worldwide regathering in unbelief in preparation for judgment; specifically, the judgment of the Tribulation. That is to be followed by a second worldwide regathering in faith in preparation for blessing, specifically, the blessing of the Messianic Kingdom.

[...]

Once it is recognized that the Bible speaks of two such regatherings, it is easy to see how the present State of Isreal fits into prophecy.

He then quotes Ezekiel 20:33-38 to explain the regathering in unbelief.

33 “As I live,” says the Lord God, “surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. 34 I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,” says the Lord God.

37 “I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

He also quotes Ezekiel 22:17-22:

17 The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me; they are all bronze, tin, iron, and lead, in the midst of a furnace; they have become dross from silver. 19 Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Because you have all become dross, therefore behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. 20 As men gather silver, bronze, iron, lead, and tin into the midst of a furnace, to blow fire on it, to melt it; so I will gather you in My anger and in My fury, and I will leave you there and melt you. 21 Yes, I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you shall be melted in its midst. 22 As silver is melted in the midst of a furnace, so shall you be melted in its midst; then you shall know that I, the Lord, have poured out My fury on you.’ ”

But this time, Ezekiel prophesies, God will regather his people from all parts of the world. It should be noted that it is a regathering out of wrath, and a gathering for wrath. They were gathered out of the wrath of the Holocaust. The events of the Nazi Holocaust, when six million people died, created the world stage for Isreal to become a state, for the regathering in unbelief. That this gathering is not in faith, but unbelief, is seen from the fact that this gathering is with a mighty hand, and with outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out. This phrase is repeated twice and found in verses 33 and 34. God's goal is that of Messanic Kingship, but his means of attaining it will be by wrath and judgement. [...] This regathering in unbelief occurs after wrath has been poured out on the people. But because it is a regathering in unbelief, it is a regathering for a future time of wrath. In that future time of wrath, God will once again enter into judgement with His people and will purge the rebels among them.

[referring to the Ezekiel 22 passage]

...Jerusalem becomes the furnace of affliction, a common figure pointing to Isreal's need for refining[...]. Furthermore, it is also a regathering in unbelief because they are filled with the impurities of brass and iron and lead and tin. They are also regathered for a future time of wrath, when the wrath of God will be poured upon them for the purpose of melting them and to purify them.

In addition, Christians are not called to support the Antichrist and are to defy him. But does all of this mean that Christians should withdraw support from the Jewish state? Do you support God's judgment? Um...I think that is the wrong question.

God does lot of things without the assistance of Christians - we're not the only agent of his sovereignty in the world. Regardless of whether we support this state or not, it is, because God has ordained it. Ordained it for judgement, yes, but he has ordained it. We are not called to oppose God's sovereignty. Aside from our call to proclaim the Gospel, which we should do for the Isreali and Palestinian alike, it is not something Christians need be concerned with. It simply is.

It is an interesting piece on the eschatological roadmap, and since you find eschatology fascinating, I would recommend Footsteps of the Messiah. Perhaps you can find an audiobook version of it for your walks. Parts of it are actually funny, including the part of it that I based my defunct Christward RPG Babylon Invaders on.

Which is a good segway to my next post, which may well be about the two witnesses and Greek grammar. Lovely. But that's enough for now.

(Also if anyone knows more than what I dug up from my research about the Jewish state in Isreal I'd be happy to hear about it. This is just what I could find/have to answer the questions.)

[Hanna_Brassheart]

A post was merged into an existing topic: Prayer Requests

[Scrooge_Rustbottle]

Oh dear. This looks like a chaotic topic. Anyhow, I am going to reply to something that @Jayhawk_Greencape said on the Aetherlight Lego set post.

Aetherlight lego sets

Christ said His kingdom was "not of this world" (John 18:36) and He also calls us "not of this world" (John 17:16). Actually then, I would not agree with that statement.

I agree on this! I am not saying that Christians are supposed to be of this world, but what do you call insulting whole people groups on Facebook? People who have the Holy Spirit inside them shouldn't do that. Or storm the capital, or insult people on Facebook whom they've known for YEARS just because they recommended to get to know someone that is black! (Which I fully recommend, most are very nice!) ...BUT so called 'Christians' are doing these things, and if you think from someone who has never been to church, if you look at this stuff, you aren't going to see something special, you are going to see crabby people that will throw a fit if they don't get there way. If you did happen (Still from an unbeliever's point of view) to watch 'The Chosen' or hear about Jesus, you would probably think that Jesus seems nice, but your predominate thought might be: "Christians would be a lot better if they followed their Jesus." And for most 'Christians' you would be right. I'm not saying that any of you aren't saved, or don't have the Holy Spirit in you, but take some time when you can to look in your life, and see what you could do better to be like Jesus to others. And also, with this racial tension, get to know some people that are DIFFERENT than you, and listen to there stories. Don't assume you know everything about them. (Also, if you attack me for saying this, you're kinda proving me right... :0) )

First off, I don't think that real Christians are insulting other people groups on social media. Now, I would disagree with groups such as Antifa, who are chanting "death to America" and causing extreme violence in cities such as Portland. But that's because of their actions, not their skin color. (There is no such thing as "races" anyways, as we are all humans and all descended from Adam.) Now sure, there is some racism in our modern world, but is the truth that all Christians are racist? No!
As a side note, as much as I don't want to touch on this, when you say that Christians stormed the Capitol, that's really not true, at least as far as I can tell. Even if the people who broke in were really Trump supporters (which could or could not be true - anyone can wear Trump gear and pretend they're part of something they're not), that doesn't mean they're Christians. At all.

[Beckendorf_Direscope]

Just a word on Christian writing; it's probably already been said, but I'll put my two cents in ay way.

Often times writers who are Christian are simply writing about a topic but through the lense of their convictions. No one (hopefully) is holding it up as scripture, and (as everything) should be viewed critically. You can definitely read nothing besides the Bible and be spiritually satisfied, but I don't believe reading other books of commentary or other books is wrong.

You do not have to accept everything you read. (I often read books by people I completely disagree with!)

[Missy_Vonheart]

Word!
Just curious, why do you read books by people that you don’t agree with?

[Eerie_Coppernight]

Sometimes, someone you disagree with has a point. It may not be much of a point, but it is something you can both agree on and reason from. It may even help you bring that person around to your point of view.

[Beckendorf_Direscope]

To prepare myself for encounters with people I will meet who might share their views. The goal is to understand what they believe and what I believe, how they differ, and why.

To effectively discuss (and maybe debate) with someone, it is important to understand where they're coming from.

Differing opinions can be narrowed down to a basic opposition of worldviews. Identity that, and then you can begin to help them.

[Missy_Vonheart]

Nature pictures

Nature pictures

I assume you know what I mean, though?

[quote="Hans_Oddcraft, post:308, topic:961"]
I see what you mean,
[/quote]

Anyway, the original question was whether storms are a display of God's Power and I would say "no" since they are a result/effect of sin.

I see your point and agree, Hans, however there are several verses in Psalms that describe God in His power and majesty using stormy adjectives which kind of a cool link.

[Miss_N]

Just curious, why do you believe storms are a result/effect of sin? Personally, I don't believe they are, so I'm interested to see what reasons you have for believing otherwise 🤠
@Missy_Vonheart @Hans_Oddcraft

(P.S. I was stealthily observing from outside the forums, and I noticed the opportunity for a legitimate and informative debate, and I just couldn't resist )

[Eerie_Coppernight]

I'm fairly certain that storms, like most things, are neutral. They are the result of movements of bodies of warm and cold air. I don't think they are a direct result of the Fall. If anything, they are a result of the Flood majorly changing the world's climate. The Flood wasn't the direct result of the Fall, but the reason for the Flood was so............yes?

[Micah_Wellpride]

I don't know if you wanna hear from me, but I don't think they are either. The bad things that come as an result of storms though are because of sin. Also there is no way we could know.

[Hans_Oddcraft]

Because storms didn't exist before the Flood. The Bible says the Earth was watered by a mist. During the Flood the Windows of Heaven opened and there was rain for the first time. Therefore storms are a result of the Fall, the Curse, and the catastrophe of the Flood. In addition, storms are often a destructive force.

[Miss_N]

I'm fairly certain that storms, like most things, are neutral

I don't think they are either.

This is what I believe as well.

My reasoning...

Because storms didn't exist before the Flood.

Neither did rainbows, the nation of Israel, or even Jesus (in His human form, that is), for that matter; however, does this mean all those things are a result/effect of sin? Not necessarily...
I don't think that things that came after the Flood are automatically results of sin just because they weren't around before the Flood.
Who can say whether or not God would have created rainbows anyway, even if sin had never entered the world? I mean, we know that God loves to create beautiful things for our enjoyment, and rainbows do bring people joy. In a perfect world, everyone would actually realize that God made the rainbow, and could have perfect joy from that. (This is mostly speculation on my part, btw. I don't have concrete proof that God would have created rainbows regardless of the the Fall, it's just something I believe )

In addition, storms are often a destructive force.

Like @Micah_Wellpride said,

The bad things that come as an result of storms though are because of sin.

The destruction, fear, anxiety, pain, death, etc. etc. that come about because of storms are definitely results of sin, but I don't believe that simply because the storms cause those things, that they themselves are a result of sin. I mean, humans surely are a destructive force, but they certainly were not a result of sin. (if anything, sin was a result of humans)

That's just my 2 cents. I don't think it really matters whether or not storms are a result of sin, as long as one obtains one's opinion through logical and biblical sources

[Missy_Vonheart]

Just remember that even though the human race caused the Fall through disobedience to God He turned those circumstances around for good. The Flood was a harsh judgement (deserved btw) for a sinful generation. Through that we got the restart of the human race, rainbows, thunderstorms, and eating meat!
Once Eve and then Adam bit took and ate that forbidden fruit it started the greatest chain of events ever, which eventually resulted in Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and being raised up again, restoring us to Him!
I don’t believe that thunderstorms are necessarily something to look at as awful (I think they’re really cool), however I would agree that they are a byproduct of disobedience to God at some point.
P.s. This does not mean that I believe your house got struck by lightning because you ate your brother’s jelly beans.

[Xonos_Darkgrate1]

why do you read books by people that you don’t agree with?

To round out your knowledge and challenge your opinions. Iron sharpens iron.

[Beckendorf_Direscope]

It helps me to see where my own views fall short or need to be strengthened.